These days, open source has become pervasive across every aspect of our lives. From your refrigerator to your TV to your phone, almost everything you’re using incorporates some aspect of open source software. Today we welcome Chris Aniszczyk to the show. Chris is an open source technologist with a passion for building a better world through open collaboration. He's currently a CTO at the Linux Foundation where he focuses on developer relations and running the Open Container Initiative and the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. He’s also a partner at Capital Factory, where he focuses on mentoring, advising, and investing in open source and infrastructure focused startups. Chris’s CV also includes creating Twitter’s open source program and serving on the Eclipse Foundation Board. Today we discuss how open source became as pervasive as it is today and how it has changed over time. We talk about which types of companies or areas open source has not yet permeated and why, as well as the vast benefits of open source program offices. To hear more about the value of open source and the importance of keeping the ‘open’ in ‘open source’, tune in today!
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[0:00:03.5] ANNOUNCER: Welcome to the OCTOPod, hosted by Alan Clark and brought to you by the SUSE & Rancher Community. Alan has spent his software career, focused on open source advocacy and emerging tech. In The OCTOPod season one, Alan talks with experts across technology about trends and challenges in open source. From building communities to diversity and inclusion to keeping the ‘open’, in open source.
[0:00:37.1] AC: Hi everyone, welcome to The OCTOPod. This season, we’re talking about open source and it’s my great pleasure today to welcome Chris Aniszczyk to the show. Chris, thanks for joining us and Chris is an open source technologist with a passion for building a better world through open collaboration. He’s currently the CTO at the Linux Foundation where he focuses on developer relations and running the Open Container Initiative which I think, Chris is where I probably first met you, I’m not sure. Then, of course, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation or CNTF.
Chris is also a partner at Capital Factory where he focuses on mentoring, advising, and investing in open source and infrastructure focus startups. Chris’ CV has a lot, we can let him elaborate on that a little bit more. This also includes creating Twitter’s open source program and serving as the Eclipse Foundation board and actually, it might have been the first place I met you actually is back with Eclipse.
Anyway, thanks for joining us Chris, I appreciate you being here.
[0:01:43.8] CA: I’m excited to have an opportunity, I kind of love doing these podcasts and talking a little bit about my experience in open source.
[0:01:52.4] AC: Awesome, yeah, I was really excited to have you on the show today because of your background, I know we’ve interacted quite a bit over the years and have a high esteem for you and I think it’s going to be pretty interesting sharing our experiences today. Let’s jump into this for a while.
Let’s talk about how open source is growing and changing. Open source has been around for many years, several decades and even Linux, right? Turns what, 30 this year? 30 plus? In your mind, what percentage of software today is being developed as open source?
[0:02:28.7] CA: It’s been kind of a story, history for open source. If you look at things today, almost everything you’re using has some aspect of open source software from your refrigerator to your TV to your phone, you could actually, one of the things I do with family members, sometimes are asked like, “Chris, what do you actually do?” It’s like, “Oh, I work in open source stuff” I’m like, “Go to your phone, go to the settings and go to legal notices and look at all the software, you could see all the copyright notices for all the software that ships in these things.”
I think open source is purely pervasive across every aspect of our lives, most of the software built today is embedding open source componentry. If you look at data from a variety of reports out there, whether it’s from traditional SEA Vendors like the Black Ducks of the world or Sneaks, there’s something like 90 plus percent of software that their scanning has open source components to it. I think it will vary depending on industry but in general, I’m very confident to say that the majority of software developed today is being built on top of open source software from just core low levels like Linux who has been around for 30 years, which is very exciting. I’m very excited to have a little party later this year, celebrating the 30th birthday of Linux but it’s everything from UI. I’ve been heavily involved in the Kubernetes cloud native aspects, a lot of that cloud infrastructure now is open source. It’s truly pervasive and people just don’t realize it and it’s amazing how much it’s changed.
I don’t know if you know my origin story of open source. I kind of got a lot, played with computers when I was growing up, parents brought up a ZX Spectrum, if you remember those kinds of devices.
[0:04:06.4] AC: Yeah.
[0:04:07.5] CA: I was tinkering with those and wanted to play video games, eventually start to learn a little bit about Basic, the gorilla, that bask game back in the day. Eventually, I found Slackware, which is a kind of an old school kind of Linux distribution and played with it, right? That was my first foray and to solve problems, you literally jumped on to IRC and Use Net and ask questions and people back in the day, I didn’t know them at all. I think I was trying to fix my sound driver, also was broken or something and I’m just asking questions and people all over the world were just stepping up and answering me without any expectation of return.
That whole feeling was so amazing, I think I kept it with me since those days and it basically been like paying forward since. Those kind of early days, things are completely different now, open source is everywhere, there’s GitHub, GitLab, it’s just pervasive but things have definitely changed, I think for the better but I do kind of miss those simpler hobbyist tinkering days for sure.
[0:05:05.2] AC: Yeah, you’ve touched on one of the things that I love about open source is how people respond from around the world, right? You make friends from all over the world. I do remember those early days and I got more gray hair than you. Particularly, back with the beginnings of the Linux Foundation when I was on that board, open source wasn’t as pervasive, right?
You talk to people and say, “I work on open source” and they look at you like, “What is that?” They wouldn’t’ even know what it was and when you try to explain it, they were like, “Really? And it’s for free?” Let’s talk about just the definition of open source. Do you think it’s changed, has open source itself changed over time?
[0:05:47.9] CA: I think of the definition, I mean if you kind of look, if you want to go by the book, right? There’s the open source initiative, they maintain the open source definition, which in they steward all the open source licenses. I think just – I think the core concept of open source being something all about the rights they kind of use, change, study, modifying, distribute source code to anyone for any usage or purpose, I think that core is obviously still there.
I think what’s changed is a lot of the original open source motivation I think was from a tinkering perspective, a learning, a hobbyist. Now, given that literally, we’re remodeling our kitchen right now and we were coming across, I think it was a fridge from Bosch or something and I was looking at it and as part of the purchase, the fridge, here’s all the open source that ships with the fridge. There’s lots of companies all over the world now that are building on top of open source so it’s less of a purely hobbyist thing, the hobbyist thing is still there but everyone else now is involved. It’s more global than it kind of used to be in the early days.
The core definition, I don’t think has changed, it’s just like, how people participate, I think in community, there’s a lot of – open source has enabled that permission-less innovation and collaboration that is just the best way to develop software. I mean, you’ve seen this throughout your career, it’s like, the reason open source is driven is because it’s truly one of the best ways to develop software and I’m seeing a lot of companies.
Also historically, if you remember, if you’re building a product, you would have a customer advisory board or product advisory council, right? There would be private meetings, you host them in. I think what open source has done for a lot of companies is kind of move that customer advisory, product advisory council to the open now and enable some of that discussion that happened in the open. I think core concept open source hasn’t changed definition wise but kind of how people perceive it from a usage, less of a hobbyist thing but how to actually build better communities, better products in the open.
[0:07:49.5] AC: Yeah, I agree. Totally agree. Following on that, when we look at it from a business perspective, in today’s world, it’s hard to understand how software cannot be open source, right? It just seems. I know that’s because you and I have a long, steep history in open source and see the advantages of it and the benefits, right? Some of which you just elaborated. Why would a vendor choose to not go open?
[0:08:18.1] CA: It’s an interesting question. I think for me, like a vendor or a company startup, whatever, I think it truly depends on what your business model and business value is. For example, I worked at Twitter for many years, kind of ran their open source efforts and Twitter’s business model was at the time, mostly focused on advertising, right? They had an ad server but all the software to run infrastructure, they cared less. If it wasn’t advertising related, it was just an enabler of the business, right?
For me, if you have some piece of software that you’re using to either sell a license to or doing a value ad thing on top, that I think is core thing but I everything else, not so much. You look at a company like Twitter, they open sourced a lot of stuff that is used world-wide today, bootstrap for front end, Java script and CSS frameworks, they use tons of places, things like Mesos, before the Kubernetes days because we couldn’t find anything. A lot of Hadoop Utilities, our Memcached forked and so on.
I think it truly depends on how your business makes money and what your value is and kind of what your business model. A lot of people confuse, open source is not a business model, it’s a method to collaborate and develop software, how your business makes money is completely different.
[0:09:29.4] AC: Separate.
[0:09:30.7] CA: Absolutely. Another canonical example that may be more relatable for folks is Netflix. During the pandemic, we’ve been stuck at home watching a lot of TV.
[0:09:41.1] AC: All bingeing.
[0:09:42.3] CA: Bingeing on TV but the Netflix is fascinating because they’re in the content business, right? They developed movies or license content, the software to run that infrastructure is not a value to them really, right? If you look at Netflix OSS, their open source efforts, they basically open source the majority of components that they run their streaming service and they work with competitors, peers and others and community members to improve that software because they benefit from that.
To me, that’s a truly enlightened mindset for companies to understand, what is your true value, what is commodity and how do I work with my competitors and others potentially to improve that commodity.
[0:10:27.4] AC: One of the fun things, having been involved with the board leadership at the Linux Foundation when it started of course, it was all about Linux and the Linux kernel and it is expanded so much since the beginning, right? To include so many different types of projects, market areas, technology areas. Some of them, at the time, I just scratch my head and go, “Okay? Awesome” but can you think of some areas where open source hasn’t penetrated? If so, what are the barriers that are preventing them from doing open source?
[0:11:06.5] CA: Yeah, no. Definitely the Linux Foundation has evolved over time. I sometimes argue with my boss, Jim Semlin, who you’re very familiar with. Is that really a good name? Because you’re really a foundation to foundations, you enable other people to kind of copy that original model when –
[0:11:24.8] AC: That’s a long discussion just in itself.
[0:11:28.5] CA: That’s a losing one for me but that’s okay.
[0:11:31.1] AC: Yeah, that’s – we’ve had that one, I’ve had that one with Jim as well. I’m sure a thousand people have.
[0:11:37.6] CA: If you look at all these foundations, CNCF being one example, which I help create, obviously cloud infrastructure what I think was an easier self or kind of that Netflix model but if you look at other industries out there that kind of have struggled, I’ve had some fascinating discussion. Just recently, I worked on a new effort in the gaming industry. A few weeks ago, we announced something called the Open 3D Foundation or O3D. This is basically a fully open sourced Triple-A gaming engine so people could build games on and run them everywhere.
Through my investigation, kind of in this industry, the gaming industry, all the major engines out there of triple-A quality were proprietary, running a proprietary platform, proprietary tools. That’s just what they kind of accepted, right? That was just kind of what’s always existed and historically, those companies kind of had very strict rules around intellectual property, what does it mean for my content, my game content is open source or –
Historically, I think that industry has taken a while to evolve, they use a lot of open source but I think they’ve been iffy about producing things and so, this I think is a first kind of example, that kind of being pushed forward in the industry, which to me is awesome. I’m a huge fan of gaming and I think we need to have more open source gaming tools and things where kids could get involved.
One of my first early programming memories was at a stupid game called gorilla.bas, which is like gorillas throwing bananas at each other and you’d open up basic and you can modify the algorithms, making platforms work the next generation, kids and younger folks could have that tinkering and modifying experiences like truly passionate for me. I hope things like O3D make that happen. Other industries that I could think of that I’ve had fun conversations with is pharmaceuticals.
[0:13:23.8] AC: That’s a tough one, isn’t it?
[0:13:25.8] CA: Yeah, heavy regulated stuff, there’s kind of –
[0:13:27.7] AC: Heavy regulated, yeah.
[0:13:29.3] CA: Yup, I think that one, there’s heavy regulation, there could be an issue but was kind of funny, problems where they have where they’re like, we have these devices that we use for drug discovery and what devices like centrifuges, they spin things around and I’ll use kind of the process of discovery.
Those are very closed, not many companies sell them, closed OS, very proprietary and a lot of the companies that actually do the drug discovery like the end users want to make changes, want to modify things. This is kind of like the Linux kernel story in some ways where it’s like, “Well, Linux was very hobbyist and people were like, what happens if I stuff it in a phone or embedded device, can we change things?” That’s the kind of, the end users are missing that freedom in that particular industry.
I think there’s very few, even the regulated ones have evolved, Linux and the financial industry have a huge –
[0:14:18.1] AC: Yeah, I was going to bring up FenOS right? We’re actually a member of that. I’m pretty excited about that, they joined the Linux foundation, had been eight months now?
[0:14:27.7] CA: Yeah, I think around a year maybe, roughly. Yeah, I’m tired. Time is a cost with it.
[0:14:33.9] AC: As we were joining, they actually hadn’t become part of the Linux Foundation at that point and then we were talking to them, they moved over. Yeah, even finance sector where they’ve got a lot of regulation, are coming around open source, it’s pretty exciting.
[0:14:48.6] CA: Yup, there’s very few industries we could find these days and I think eventually, you’ll see almost every major industry out there have some aspect that they’re willing to collaborate on with their peers and commodity, the other kind of Linux foundation example, I could at least think of – I wasn’t too heavily involved with them, was the Academy software foundation, the film industry.
[0:15:07.4] AC: Yes.
[0:15:08.8] CA: They have this weird problem where they develop this cool software to build movies, right? Maybe develop an algorithm for an explosion or color pallet optimization. When people move different companies, they constantly have to reinvent that thing and eventually, there were some great leaderships in that organization through their executive director out there, I think it Rob Reto where they were like, “We’re in the movie business, we’re creators” right? That’s where – we craft narratives and content, the software used to build that is less important. Can we kind of work together even though film studios aggressively compete on.
[0:15:43.7] AC: Compete.
[0:15:45.3] CA: The software used to build that is maybe an area of commoditization and collaboration.
[0:15:48.8] AC: As soon as they grasp that concept, that’s when I see people go, “Oh we can do this. We can do open source.” Years ago, you know one of the companies I worked at, they were particularly in those shares were proprietary software not open source and I was getting into open source and so we formed a committee, I’ll call it a ‘committee’ back at that day to figure out what made business sense to adopt as far as open source and legally what we could adopt and use, make sure we’re compliant with the licenses and so forth and then grew from there to going out and contributing in open source, right?
This committee grew and its responsibility and roles. Now, I know you’ve been involved in similar particular through history with Twitter as you mentioned. These tend to have more of a formal name now of an open source business office, right? Could you elaborate a little bit about what an open source business office does today? How people are using it and what kind of impact that’s having on open source and the type of contributions that are being made?
[0:16:58.0] CA: Yeah, I know, awesome. Yeah, I think there is different kind of names for these things whether it’s like open source office, open source business office, open source program office. You know generally, these days we coequally refer that, refer to them as OSPOs, which is short for kind open source program office but they seem to be popping up everywhere. Now the core kind of definition of what an OSPO does is I think it’s truly like you mentioned, these center for competency for organizations like open source operations and structures, given that open source is now pervasive to software development, both from a consumption and production point of view.
Things like setting code usage policy, so like what can your development teams and engineers consume from an open source perspective? What can you produce from an output perspective, right? Setting auditing and policies to ensure that developers are doing things in a legally kosher mindset, maybe training developers is a big part of my role at Twitter was when developers join the company, we had this kind of like first week engineering bootcamp, you know learn how to contribute to the codebase, learn our philosophies.
Part of that was a course dedicated to what is open source, what is our philosophy here? What are our policies and so on? And a lot of companies are realizing that this is actually a valuable thing to have in your organization. On top of just having a place to understand that maybe instead of reinventing the wheel and building stuff inside the company, maybe we could leverage open source stuff, right? That would be potentially a good option or, funny enough, if a company is large enough sometimes you’re not actually even sure what open source software you’re using and so just have a wall –
[0:18:38.6] AC: Another group picked it up, yeah.
[0:18:39.9] CA: We used to have this joke when I was at IBM a long time ago, we used to work on software like we’d work on projects and the joke was like there is always be like five other groups kind of doing the same thing those days and I see OSPOs helping kind of bridge that collaboration amongst teams and say like, “If you’re using Redis and another team is using Memcached, should we maybe standardize on one key value store? Why do we multiple select?”
I see that kind of like architecture collaboration especially across larger organizations. I don’t know if you have seen that in your –
[0:19:10.7] AC: I’ve actually had have and I’ve actually had people consult me on doing open source inside their company for that very purpose, so that they can create a more collaborative environment with the intent of sharing within the company, right? Not necessarily open sourcing it outside but it’s developing that culture and that collaborative culture inside their company itself. It would be interesting to follow-up and see how well they’ve done over the years.
[0:19:40.6] CA: No, definitely. That would be super interesting. Outside of the kind of the compliance architecture help, I think at Twitter at least in our case like it was very hard to hire talent, right? It is just very difficult time at least at that time and so one interesting thought we had was well, one thing like if we work in a bunch of open source software, you know folks that kind of work on these projects, we could look at the contributor is right and potentially try to go hire them, right? It actually worked out really well for I think a year.
[0:20:09.6] AC: Sure, the beauty of that is you can go look at the code, you know what they’ve done, right? You can see how they code. Yeah, that is one of the strengths of Git nowadays, isn’t it?
[0:20:21.0] CA: Yeah and interview process is easy, so you already know kind of what they worked on and the other weird thing where I kind of forget, now back in my earlier career like we worked on a lot of proprietary systems, so there was always like this crazy onboarding period where for you to become a useful developer maybe in the month’s timeframe but if the software we’re using is open source, you’re already kind of familiar with maybe a little bit of Kubernetes or some other bit of Linux. It just shortens the onboarding, developer onboarding experience, which from a company perspective is super valuable.
[0:20:54.4] AC: Yeah, you’ve brought up a couple of ideas here and I want to come back and maybe expose those little more about the role of an open source business office or I mean to call is OSPO anyway.
[0:21:05.1] CA: OSPO, yeah.
[0:21:07.1] AC: All right, we’ll call it OSPO. Let’s think about it from a business perspective. What I want to pull out here is, can OSPO be strategic, right? It’s very easy to see it as a check the box, let’s make sure we’re compliant, we teach people how to do open source, check the box, right? How to be good citizens, how to be collaborative but do you think they can be impactful in a strategic way for a business?
[0:21:33.0] CA: Absolutely, so you know, I think from the perspective of just having a clear understanding of I kind of mentioned this earlier from like just a developer efficiency point of view. A lot of times, a lot of companies these days are trying to develop and ship software faster to meet the needs of their customers and users. The faster they can ship software, the faster they can innovate better for the business and I think OSPOs could help that significantly by A, making it easier for developers to both consume and produce open source to save on engineering time.
If there is any crazy approval processes and other things to kind of deal with, to potentially helping the assistance of re-architecting systems, maybe like preventing lots of code and duplication that kind of Memcache-Redis example, maybe someone is using Cassandra, maybe someone is using other things, can you kind of simplify things and kind of get that benefit of using the one system helping with that build versus buy decision, which is usually very high level strategic thing for companies. Should we build something from scratch or build them and pop them in open source thing versus buying maybe a commercial offering?
I think I am seeing a lot of companies these days establish these OSPOs, whether it’s companies like Apple, BMW, Wayfair, Goldman Sachs to basically meet these kind of strategic things because they are using tons of software and they need people to kind of help catalog things, are we doing the right things?
Actually bringing open source practices within the company to kind of get teams to collaborate sometimes that’s coequally called inner sourcing but stealing kind of the best ideas from open source and bringing it inside the company is a thing there. I purely view it as a very strategic things that companies are waking up to. I feel like the same thing happened with the security movement. If you remember CISOs, they weren’t really a thing like 20, 30 years ago, right?
I think maybe it was one of the banks that created the first CISO due to some incident and generally now, it’s like everyone’s got some kind of security.
[0:23:34.3] AC: Everyone’s got this, yeah.
[0:23:35.5] CA: Yeah and we are seeing this – I feel like the same thing has happened with the open source thing where you know, people are seeing the benefit. It is not just because, “Hey, we had a compliance issue” that we need to form this, it’s like, “This is actually strategic for our business.”
[0:23:48.3] AC: Okay, cool. Thank you. Chris, maybe to take it in a little different direction here because there is always things in the news where some businesses are challenging, the licenses or are finding that their business model isn’t fruitful as they thought it might be with leveraging open source or whatever, so what do we need to do or how can we keep the open in open source? Do you think we’ve got a threat here in the future or is there something we need to be careful of or watch out for as we go forward?
[0:24:21.2] CA: You know, my big thing is potentially the concern of essentially software that was open source but not potentially open governed in some way. We’re kind of owned by multiple parties, so the reason things like Linux Foundation, Apache Foundation, Eclipse Foundation all exists, they act as neutral stewards. We actually had an interesting incident recently where a company, you know, Grafana, very famous kind of dash boarding thing, they decided to relicense things to AGPL.
Elastic has also done this too, right? When that happens, I think it teaches people a lesson that even though things are open source, these are all technically open source pieces of software and you know some of them still are. AGPL is a valid open source license but there’s also this kind of weird source available, share-ware licensing thing that’s happening with companies where they kind of have changed the terms but that would not be possible if the software was in the Apache Foundation, Linux Foundation, Eclipse Foundation, et cetera.
The role of a neutral steward I think is becoming more important because people realize this as a bit of a risk, so I don’t view it as a fundamental risk to open source. I think we’re not going to go back to the share-ware days. I just don’t see it happening, people are going to work around it. If you look at Elastic, what’s happened? A bunch of companies have gotten together with the help of AWS and created something called, I think it’s Open Search, right?
They are basically working off an older fork and growing an own community around it, right? Sometimes people reinvent and rebuild something new based on that. I think the freedom to do permission-less innovation and collaboration is just so key to open source that you’re just— Going to another model or kind of being strangled-hold by one company is just not going to work. People are going to work around the system, so that’s my view. I don’t know if you have – you work in an open source vendor.
[0:26:11.7] AC: Yeah. No, I totally agree with you there. In fact, you know it accolades to groups like CNCF, right? They have a whole process there of incubation to graduation and one of those checkmarks there is the viability of the community, of the community around the project, right? That it’s more than a single vendor that has got multiple different contributors, right? Not just from a single company has a contributor and so I agree with you. That is very important for the vitality of the project in the future.
[0:26:43.7] CA: From my perspective, I was actually in a meeting today about particularly the Prometheus kind of Grafana debacle and you know, let’s say one of the core maintainers of Prometheus, they had their own dashboard in the past that they created. They moved to Grafana and their assumption was always like, “Great, this amazing piece of open source software kind of reuse and do for it.” What they didn’t really expect is just one company having the freedom to completely pull the expectations and change the license on them and it was just an interesting moment.
Most open source maintainers just don’t necessarily think that way. They go, “I could use this all freely, always be available” whatever, it was like a lesson for them of like there’s more to open source than just the license. There is this governance aspect and so on, what you’re familiar with your kind of history with Apache, Eclipse, Open Stack, CNCF and then so on. It is super important.
[0:27:37.1] AC: Yeah and actually, rolling back to our discussion about OSPOs, I think this is actually a critical piece, an OSPO needs to look out when they’re making a decision on what – which or what open source software to use, right? This is a checkbox, how is it governed and where is it governed, right? Is it a single company? Is it a competitor? Is it a neutral body?
[0:28:01.1] CA: Absolutely. It’s kind of like procurement in software, right? If you’re going to go purchase a product and it’s like this tiny company in some island, is that a potential risk for the business? Yes, maybe so yeah, so same thing. You’re right, you’re completely in the lead.
[0:28:17.2] AC: Particularly very strategic to the company, right?
[0:28:19.5] CA: Absolutely, so yeah it’s been a fun discussion and learning experience for a lot of maintainers that have been new to this.
[0:28:25.6] AC: I’m sure it’s one we’ll keep having over and over again over the years. All right Chris, we’ve talked about quite a few different things. At this point, I kind to like to ask just a general question. In the past, we’ve asked some of our guest how people can contribute, how they could get involved with open source, maybe just a more general question here, what are your thoughts on the aspect of open source and how people could be involved or corporates could be more attuned to open source? What are some of your thoughts in that area?
[0:28:57.8] CA: I think there is many great programs out there for individuals to get involved in open source through internships and I think companies have done historically a better perspective. You know, we have a lot of mentorships out there within CNCF but one thing that I’m personally passionate about is getting more companies out there and organizations to think about sustaining open source as a corporate social responsibility effort.
You know, before this for this podcast, you know I was like, “Oh, let’s go see what’s going on in the SUSE website” and I was actually extremely stoked to see this CSR or ESG effort, where a lot of times companies are like, “Oh we’re going to focus on climate change, supply chain impact, ethics” but explicitly calling out open source for good as one effort I think is something more companies could do in their CSR efforts and kudos to SUSE for doing this.
I want to see other companies to kind of be serious about this because there are open sources everywhere now, it’s pervasive. Companies have to think about it as something they sustain, almost like a common kind of resource, right? To me, it’s as is important as many of these other CSR initiatives. For me, my ask would be if other organizations are listening out there, work with your CSR or ESG departments and see how you can make sustaining open source projects and foundations part of that discussion included in your annual report.
I just want to say that was my kind of like find of the day Alan and kudos to you and others who help with that. Every little bit could help there.
[0:30:33.9] AC: Great. Thank you, Chris. Well, this has been a great discussion. Thank you so much for taking the time to take this conversation with us today. For our listeners, check out community.suse.com for more information and make sure to subscribe to The OCTOpod on your favorite podcast platform.
[END OF INTERVIEW]
[0:30:53.0] ANNOUNCER: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of The OCTOpod. Subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts, so you’ll never miss an episode. While you’re at it, if you find value in the show, we’d appreciate a rating on iTunes or if you simply tell a friend about the show, that’ll help us out too. You can connect with us at SUSE & Rancher Community at community.suse.com.